Talking Fusion Marketing, with Lon Safko

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Martin: Hello and welcome. Today we’re going to talk about fusion marketing. I am joined by someone who was introduced to me by a chap called Jamie Turner. And Jamie’s an awesome guy. I met him in Social Media Marketing World last year.

And Lon and I are in a bit of a, kind of, what do we call that group? It’s almost - it’s a lovely group of people that have come together. But that’s where I met Lon. So we’re going to come on and explain - we’ve got some numbers for you. You’re going to be impressed with this. It’s great.

We’re going to talk fusion marketing.

But I also want you to show Lon some love, because he gets Google+, but his communities are elsewhere. And I’m saying it’s really nice here. Show him some love. Come and see him.

So we’re going to talk around what fusion marketing is, what it can do for your business, what’s different. But there’s lots of bits I want to pull together, because Lon’s got this amazing video, which was put into Plus Your Business community the other. And I know Alexander commented on it. It was very cool.

So I want to talk about how that came about, because it’s an important piece in the visual puzzle. But I also want to talk about Lon’s books and get an introduction. And then we’re going to come onto applications and for you, some takeaways around fusion marketing. So welcome Lon.

Lon: Glad to be here, coming from all the way around the other side of the world from you.

Martin: First, you’ve got some lovely things in the background. You’ve got some blocks. Did you put the names on them yourself?

Lon: I forgot they were there. It’s the three Cs of innovation. And it’s how to be more creative, how to think more creatively.

Martin: Cool.

Lon: I’m getting ready for my Asia trip.

Martin: And you are an hour outside of San Diego somewhere.

Lon: That’s correct. An hour north.

Martin: And it’s sunny there, isn’t it? Because I’ve been complaining about the weather. I always complain about the weather.

Lon: Yeah. Almost 70.

Martin: Everybody watching or listening to this on the podcast, I took Benji out this morning, took the dog out, and the ice was on the ground for the first time this year. And honestly, his little face was like, why? Why are we doing this? I don’t want to go.

Anyway, so I miss California.

Lon, who are you? What do you do? And then we’re going to talk books to start with.

Lon: Well, I’m an author among many other things. I also do professional speaking, and I do training around the globe. Got some exciting stuff coming up here in the next couple of months. I’m going to be in Kuala Lampur, Singapore, Shanghai, Dubai, and Mumbai, and Bangkok.

Martin: A lot of alliteration and rhyming then. If anybody knows any of the places that rhyme with those, then he’ll just come because it sounds of greatness. Lovely.

Great. So you’ve been traveling around doing a lot of speaking.

Lon: Yeah, I really enjoy that. And a lot of that is based on my bestselling book, The Social Media Bible, which is doing pretty good. It’s in its 3rd ed, 5 languages, and I’m excited about that.

Martin: I’m diving in, everybody. This is where we begin. I’m going to get this in early. We’re 3 minutes in.

Sometimes when you hear people say, oh my bestselling book. Bestselling where?

However listen to the revenues being generated. Almost, going how much, almost a -

Lon: $1M.

Martin: Almost $1M from this book, very successful.

Lon: On social media.

Martin: And on social media.

Lon: Social media’s going to stick with us. It’s not a fad.

Martin: There we go. That’s the first tweetable thing. Go onto Twitter with that. On Google+ you can just +1 when someone drops it in. It’s not a fad. You heard it here first.

So Lon’s got a lot of experience. He’s got a perspective on social media, which has people’s attention. It’s a lot of books you’ve got to sell for $1M.

So that’s great. What else book-wise, because I want to come onto fusion marketing in a second, but you’ve written other books as well.

Lon: I have.

Martin: After The Social Media Bible -

Lon: After The Social Media Bible, the next book that hit bestselling status hit #3 on Amazon was The Fusion Marketing Bible.

Martin: So that’s where we are. We’ve got another vista. And that’s what we really want to talk about today, the fusion marketing.

So let’s ease in. What’s fusion marketing? Why should we pay attention to it now?

Lon: Well fusion marketing is what comes next. It’s what comes after social media.

If you’re calling yourself a social media expert, what you’re really doing is admitting to the world that you only understand half of the tools necessary. And if you’re an expert in Facebook then you only know one of the dozens and dozens of tools that are necessary to market your company.

So what we saw was that so many companies moved their budgets from traditional marketing into social media and abandoned traditional. And that was foolish. And a lot of companies didn’t even participate in social media for the first 5-6-7 years. That was also foolish.

So the concept of fusion is where are we going to be 5 years from now? In 2020, what type of marketing are we going to be doing? And it’s going to be the kind of marketing where every single tool - traditional, digital, and social - are going to be brought together into one cohesive group, and every one of them are going to work together. And fusion shows you how to do that.

Martin: Well we’re going to get into the how to then. Because I know everyone’s going to say, tell me how.

So let’s talk about 2020. So before we get into that, what trends do you see now? I’m going to talk about a friend of mine, Gideon, who put a quote up. And I love this. He didn’t mean it to be a quote, but I took it and put it on an image and shared it with the community.

We are closer now to 2030 than we are to the year 2000.

Lon: Clever.

Martin: Yeah, no. I was really impressed. So the thing is we’re all talking about 2020, that’s only 5 years away. So you can project a bit. What do you see happening over the next 5 years around this movement?

Lon: Well again, looking at the trends, around 2006 no major company was using social media. And then around 2011-2012, major corporations got involved in social media and were abandoning traditional. And now we’re trying to figure out where the ROI is in social media marketing.

So if you look at those trends, what you’ve got to realize - let me ask you a question. Have you ever seen the drama called Madmen?

Martin: I have.

Lon: I think all marketing professionals should watch that series.

Martin: I watched the first season, maybe a bit of the second season. And I enjoyed it.

Lon: Yeah, well one of the things that was interesting about that show was that there was a VP of television programming. In 1962-63 when that show was taking place, television was a brand new medium. And think about it.

Wow! You can actually show your customers a demonstration of your product rather than just talking about it, printing, or radio. So there was a VP of television marketing. If you walked into a Fortune 500 company and said, can I be introduced to your VP of television marketing, security would escort you out to the parking lot, because you’ve lost your mind.

So based on that, you’ve got to think, there’s VPs of that technology. Just like a lot of companies hired VPs of social media marketing. But that’s not a lasting trend, because you have to understand every tool in marketing.

So the same way that VPs of television marketing are gone, by 2020 we’re not going to have VPs of social media marketing. We’re going to go back to having VPs of marketing who understand all of the tools and not one area and certainly not one tool.

Martin: That’s really interesting. So it’s like a specialty emerges. You need to come to grips with it. And then you need to broaden back out again and say, okay, how does this tool fit in with the rest of the toolkit?

Lon gave a thumbs up.

So there’s a - and this just takes me back to when I studied Developmental Psychology. What happens is you have differentiation in order for an increase of specialism, and then you have integration. And those are the phases that tend to happen.

Lon: Well put. That’s exactly right. No one’s looking that far down the road. Everyone’s still focusing on Facebook for Dummies or Twitter for Idiots. But we’ve got to really look at the big picture, because in a few years, that’s where we’re going to be.

Martin: Yeah.

Lon: That’s where you get your ROI, because our demographic is fractured.

Martin: That was Wiley on the phone saying they’ve got another book title.

Lon: Sorry about that.

Martin: So let’s talk about fractured. This is an interesting thing. So I went to your website, and I found some of the videos there. And I found the one video, which was on fusion marketing, and it’s a cartoon.

And if you haven’t seen it folks, I’ll put it in the event thread after. And if you’re on the website, I’ll put it on the Plus Your Business website. And this video is exceptional. It’s really, really good.

Now what’s interesting about this was the story that Lon told me of how it happened. And then I’ll give you my quick commentary. How did it come about?

Lon: Well fusion marketing actually started by doing a lot of radio interviews. The Social Media Bible is really popular and I was doing as many as 20 radio interviews a week. And usually by the end of the show, they go to that last commercial break. And it happened to me a couple of times.

The host would say, okay, we’re at the top of the hour. We’re going to break for some commercial messages. And when we come back, Lon is going to tell us what comes after social media. And then I’ve got like 2 minutes. I’m freaking out. What are you talking about? Social media is the biggest thing that’s ever hit the earth in our life time.

But it got me thinking, really, what does come after social media. And throughout my career I’ve been very good, some people call me a futurist, because I can see trends, 5-10, sometimes as much as 20 years into the future. So I thought, what is the trend? And that’s what we talked about earlier, about the specialization moving into more generalization. And I thought, yeah, that’s actually where we’re going to be.

But then I invented this tool that helps you go through the process of integrating every single one of the marketing tools. And then it turned out to be fun and it really worked. So McGraw Hill heard about it and wrote a very nice contract with me. And that hit #3. It’s called Fusion Marketing Bible. It’s kind of fun.

Martin: Awesome. Now I’m going to segue back into the video thing. So your next neighbor produces video.

Lon: Yeah. I was over at his house with his parents, my wife, and his parents. And I saw some animation that he was doing. And it’s absolutely - the kid was amazing. A high school kid. And I said, would you produce a video for me? I’ll do the script. You do the voices and the animation. And I’ll pay you to do it.

And he did. And I thought he did a very professional job.

Martin: Unbelievably professional. And the concept was - really I’ll put an event through. You’ll see it everybody.

Now the reason I bring that in is actually about big business, small business. Because you look through YouTube, and you look at the quality of productions. And I say this in this room without the backdrop.

But if you look at the quality of production on YouTube and you look at what people are bringing out, the world has become a lot flatter. We know the world’s become a lot flatter with this. And you can produce high quality content. And we’ve got the tools for collaboration. And we can reach out to people.

Lon’s nodding all the way. I’ll put Lon on the screen and you can see him.

Lon: Totally agree.

Martin: But this is a big trend, which is occurring as well. So let’s talk, before we get into the process side. What do you think the differences are between big business and small business when you approach marketing these days?

Lon: Well yeah, there is a significant difference. I work with Fortune 500 companies all the way down to one person entrepreneurial companies. And I kind of prefer the small business. And the reason is that the large business usually has 1-2-, sometimes as many as 3 different agencies working for them.

And of course, if they’re an agency, they know everything. Even though I am a specialist, and I do know as much about social media as anybody, and for the most part Fortune 500 company agencies just don’t, it usually is a very contentious kind of a relationship. They feel threatened when I come in.

So my relationship with my client is really difficult with bigger companies. And that’s why I prefer smaller companies. Pretty much all of the major companies got a handle on it. I mean, you’ve seen things like the Oreo you can dunk in the dark. I mean, they’re really on top of it and doing a great job.

So as far as consulting, really now it’s just implementation and new creative. But when you look at the small- to medium-sized businesses, those are the ones that need the most help. They don’t have a $5M advertising budget. They have a lot of creativity. They’ve got a great product or service. They’re working 50-60 hours a week. And what they need is help. They need some guidance. And that’s why I enjoy working with them.

And finally now they’re catching on to the value of social media. So they’re bringing up the rear, they’re moving in slowly, but they’re coming along. And that’s the exciting part.

Martin: Great. So let’s now talk about the how. Let’s take a small business. Who do they start approaching using your methods where they can see they’re going to get ahead of the game.

Lon: Well again the fusion marketing is about fusing everything. And it works for everything from a Fortune 500 down to a small company. Any company does it.

What I did is invented called the Safko Marketing Wheel. And it’s a wheel, it’s a multi-colored kind of a starburst with 20 points around it.

So the how is, let’s take a look at what you’re doing in traditional marketing. Don’t rule it out. It may still be working. For example, 53% of auto-dealer budgets are still pushed into newspaper, just newspaper.

So for you and I, we would think that’s totally ridiculous. But the Sunday auto section is still selling, and it’s still working. Don’t abandon traditional media.

So the first thing is let’s take a look. And I have these little cards. And the cards say print ads, television, radio, all the different things that we do in traditional marketing. And I say, let’s look at what you’ve done. So let’s flick away what you haven’t done this past year, and now let’s take a serious look at it.

But let’s look at the cost to customer acquisition. How much do you spend on newspaper advertising? How much did you spend on television?

Martin: And are you measuring it? That’s the biggest thing isn’t it. So often people are doing it, and they’re not actually - they’re just checking $1K here, $1K there, without looking at the cost per acquisition. And therefore you can’t really judge it.

It’s gut feel. And unfortunately sometimes we’re wrong with gut feel.

Lon: That’s exactly right. And I had an experience with direct mail with one of my companies. I own 3 companies right now. And I did a direct mail piece. It’s a small company. We spent about $15K on it.

And I finally decided to take my own medicine and measure it. And what I found was we spent $15K. It went to a very highly targeted group. The list was excellent. And we drove everybody to a unique URL. I mean, it’s really simple. Most people don’t think about it. But within 2 weeks of launching this, we found that we spent $15K over here, and we generated 4 customers at $10 apiece.

Martin: So you didn’t do that one again.

Lon: Yeah, we’re not going to do that again. But you know what? I had done it 3 years previous because I just knew that it would work, when in fact it didn’t work the 3 previous years. I would love to be able to recoup that money.

And a lot of companies, even Fortune 500 companies, don’t measure the cost of customer acquisition. And it’s really simple. How much money did your company spend last year? How many new customers did you get? And divide the two. That’s how much each new customer cost you.

So that’s a revelation for every company that I work with when we got through those numbers. So now we know what traditional marketing works for you. So we take those tools and set them aside. Now we look at digital and social. Now the difference between a digital marketing tool and a social marketing tool, digital doesn’t imply two-way communication.

Digital is things like SEO, Search Engine Optimization, SEM, Search Engine Marketing, e-commerce, all of the different kinds of tolls that really you need to be on the internet. They’re all digital. They’re all part of marketing. But it’s not really about communication.

Then you have social media, two-way communication. Google+, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, all imply two-way. So let’s take a look at the ones that you think should be in your marketing plan. Put them around the wheel. You can’t do them all. If you took the top 20 traditional, and the top 20 digital social, and you put all those tools together, you would have 8 with 48 zeroes after it.

That’s the number of combinations and permutations that you can do. You can’t do that. So pick the best social, digital tools. And now we’re going to mix them in with the traditional. But here’s where the fun comes in. now we have the best tools for us, we can prove that by cost to customer acquisition.

But here, on your print ads, are you driving people to sign up for your G+? On G+, are you asking people to connect with you on Twitter? Are you sending out on Tweets asking people to sign up for your email blasts? In your email blasts, do you have all the Chiclets at the bottom that drive people to Facebook.

So you see where we’re going with this. It takes the complexity out of this gigantic set of tools and actually puts it into a system where you can’t miss anything. And one tool will actually amplify the effectiveness of another tool. And that’s why the book took off, because it works and it’s a heck of a lot of fun.

Martin: Great. So I’ve got a question for you. Let’s talk about a blog. Where do you think blogs are? What do you think is happening with blogs over the next 5 years?

Lon: Again, 5 years ago, I would have said, man, get out there, blog 3-4-5 times a week at least, or at least once a week, because of the SEO implications. And that was an early test, what are the SEO implications of blogging?

And all the social media experts that you asked didn’t have a clue. You could have been talking Greek. And as you know, because you are an expert not only in social media blogging, but you’re an expert in SEO -

Martin: I wouldn’t go that far. I’m alright on the social SEO. But in terms of general SEO, I’d never call myself an expert. I never call myself an expert in anything, really, Lon.

Lon: Well let’s just say that you probably know as much or more than many. And you’re being modest, and I appreciate that. But you do understand how it works. So the more content, and you know, since the three major changes that Google made - hummingbird, penguin, and panda - that we really are moving now into content. So the more content you have out there the higher your web pages and blog pages are going to get ranked on the search engines, which relates to it’s going to be easier for your prospects to find you and convert to customers.

So yeah, you’ve still got to blog. However, just like all of the other tools in social media, they’re becoming less and less and less effective. And the reason is because so many people are doing it. We’ve become democratized. Journalism is now democratized. It used to be only magazines and newspapers and reports could control that. But now anybody can write a story. And the result is everybody is writing stories.

So the amount of content is actually overwhelming. So to try to rise above that, you have to create more content, and it has to be better content, and you have to have a bigger following.

Martin: So let’s dive into that on the following. But look at it from a perspective of community. Let’s go Facebook, Twitter, Google+. Where do you think things are going - and this is just because you like the future and I like to dive in on this. But where do you think it’s going. In terms of communities, are they becoming stronger?

Not so much about the platform and guessing what’s going to happen there. But where do you think people are at with it?

Lon: I’m seeing mixed messages. If you look at a lot of the platforms, all 3 of them. LinkedIn is a little bit different as far as daily communication, updates, statuses, stuff. But G+, Facebook, and Twitter are very similar. The first rend that I saw in all of those platforms is that the community is very strong because it wasn’t a lot of noise, not a lot of competition, not everybody was talking at the same time.So if I sent something out on Twitter, I’d get 20-30 responses in the first 60 seconds.

Then we went into this phase where if I sent something out on any of them, I wouldn’t get any responses because everybody is talking and nobody’s listening. Because the amount of people that are just blabbing, it’s really overwhelming. Now I’m seeing the trend is that the community - and I’m glad you brought up that word. That’s a really important word - it’s not just the size of your network, but it’s about the dedication that your network has.

I mean, how many of them if you call them will help you move on Saturday? None.

So it’s about that link that you have with that community. Because we’re inundated with noise. So you have to focus your efforts to only the best blog sites, like your business site I think is amazing. I’ve been watching the updates all week. That’s good information. So I look forward to that information coming to me.

Whereas my Facebook updates, I couldn’t care less. I don’t care that you’re playing with your kitty. I don’t care that you’re having bacon with your eggs.

Martin: I don’t know where to go with that one. So let’s talk Google+. So I know everybody’s watching going, when he’s going to get on to Google+? I wanted everybody to meet you Lon, because you’ve got a good view. And when I met you, apart from you being a super nice chap, you’ve got a very good view.

Because my background, I mean I’ve got a law-business degree, so 20 years ago I graduated - almost. And I did a business joint honors, and I did a law joint honors, and I learned marketing as it were. And there’s consumer behavior. And I look back and in fact, somebody brought a business book out this week and they were talking about the 4 Ps. And I was like, there’s a lot more to it these days than the 4 Ps, which you learned about then.

Then I got into adwords, which you can measure the cost for acquisition, and it’s awesome. And I loved that. Then my big marketing push was Google+. And I see that the ability to build a community around content as one of the key reasons to be here. And the connections, the personal network, and so on.

So the question for you is businesses, though, are a little slower on the uptake. So where do you see that they’re at? Where do you think over the next 5 years with Google+, do you think people are going to get it? Or do you think they’re just going to stay on Twitter and Facebook? And I know I’m loading a gun here for you to fire. But I’m just curious. It’s a very open conversation.

We’ve got people watching that I’m sure would love to know.

Lon: Well one of the things we had talked about earlier is Google is amazing at developing technology. I thought Google Wave was a decade ahead of its time, and then it crashed and burned. Grand Central was amazing. But Google’s not very good at marketing. And thank goodness they’ve got people out there as a proponent for Google+.

Martin: You were about to say working for free, weren’t you?

Lon: Yeah, but it’s going to pay off in the end. I believe in what you’re doing.

Martin: I think that this comment has come up before around the strength is in engineering, not so much in telling the story as much as they could.

Lon: Again, well put. Very good at engineering. Not good at telling the story. And too often, really good technology is just drying up and disappearing because they’re not good at it. And that’s why I gave you that compliment because you are good at telling the story and the value.

I believe in Google+. It’s part of every presentation I do that people do need to participate. But just in that short conversation that we had this morning, I’m more enthusiastic about Google+ now than I was an hour earlier.

And you’re absolutely right, start with adwords. Adwords, absolutely amazing. It was the most amazing marketing tool on earth. But when you have everybody using adwords, the cost of each word has become prohibitive, and the effectiveness has plummeted. And that’s what happens when you get these large amounts of people moving to a particular platform like adwords.

Facebook, when you had the ability to market for free, and you had these really strong communities, Facebook was a great place to market. But now that they have to answer to Wall Street and a board of directors and everything has to be charged for and you’ve got tons and tons of people on there, even Facebook advertising, I don’t find it nearly as effective today as it was a few years ago. So really, where is the next platform where you can build a community and not be inundated with the amount of noise and expense?

And we’re back to G+. Not only that, but if you look at all the other tools, the SEO components, and the Google docs, and everything else - my goodness. It’s the most robust, integrated system on the planet. So I think the logical thing is move over toward G+, no doubt.

Martin: And that was an advert for Google+. We’re going to snip that. Let’s end the interview now. That was it.

Lon: Thank you Martin. It was a pleasure being here.

Martin: That’s what we see too, Lon. And this is also why, and I know people are watching, so circle Lon up. I want to get him more involved in what we’re doing, partly because Jamie’s fantastic. Jamie’s wonderful and a part of that group. And just a lovely bunch of people that he’s brought together.

But I know that so much is about feeling welcome somewhere. And people need to feel that they’re getting some traction. That maybe you’re getting some tips. And maybe you’re getting some support. And when you do that, you go, I like this place because people are saying hello. And they’re supporting me. And that’s where the business comes.

And then you can start looking at the community being built and the story being told. And saying, over on Twitter and Facebook, Lon’s got a lot of traction, Lon knows a lot of people. On Google+, you may not know him. Hopefully you do now.

Lon: Please.

Martin: Please do. Because there’s some great people who we will welcome. So that’s very cool.

Now, we’re going to come to questions in a sec. What advice, if people are out there, if there’s action steps for them to take in relation to getting organized? Buy your book, absolutely. I mean, what else can they do that’s going to help to get them focused. And I’m going to come to the event and just find the questions as we go.

Lon: The first thing is don’t get overwhelmed. And that’s what people do. When you look at all the different tools and the amount of work and content generation, don’t get overwhelmed. Take it one step at a time. And I’m not pitching fusion, but at least use that concept.

Buy the book, don’t buy the book, use the concept of looking at everything that you’ve been doing in the past, trying to measure whether or not it’s been effective. That way you can move your financial and human resources from things that aren’t effective into things that are effective. And you can also move those into new social media tools that you haven’t tried. It’s a way of recovering some expenses.

The next thing is take a look at some of the social media tools. Take a look at G+ first. Take a look at Facebook. And then try, just try one of them. Try it for a while. But don’t expect immediate success. With all marketing, it’s going to take a little bit of time. You have to build that community and trust.

One of the things, and I know the social media experts are 50-50 on this, what I’ve found is that the people that are fanatic about Facebook, or in a twitter about Twitter, but there’s not a lot of crossover. So yeah, I do post a lot of the same content, or I mix it up just a little bit. So what I do on G+, I’ll put on Facebook.

Well the good news is that if you’re posting both content, you’re going to see where your community is. You’re going to see what’s working and what’s not working. So I recommend that. Get on all the major platforms. But start measuring what’s effective. Where is your community?

And then the most important thing is use every tool that you’re currently using to drive every other tool. So in this case, I’m a little weak on G+. I admit that. So guess what you’ve talked me into Martin? My next campaign that I’m going to do is how am I going to use my email, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, everything - Pinterest, Instagram, to drive people over and connect with me on G+. Because those are marketing tools not just for my products and services. But those are marketing tools I can use to build the effectiveness of my marketing tools.

Martin: Fantastic. Now I know, and we’ve got some people watching, I’m just going to dive in and say. We’ve got a question. So I’m going to say hi to Michelle and Nazim and to Sheila and to Mary. I know Tim’s watching as well. You have a little chat.

Do you have a podcast?

Lon: I haven’t done a podcast recently. But that doesn’t mean I don’t have a podcast. If you go to iTunes, and you put my name in, when I did The Social Media Bible, I interviewed the most important people in the world in social media. I interviewed Matt Mullenweg who invented WordPress. And I interviewed the executive VP of Flickr and the VP of YouTube and Keith who invented Open Social.

And there’s 50 of the top people. Even Michael Gerber, the entrepreneur guy. And my favorite one was Vince Surf. He was the guy who invented the internet. And to spend an hour with him on the phone and to hear where he thinks the internet and social media is going into the future, they’re actually going to connect the next Mars rover into social media so that we can watch what’s going on ourselves. Is that cool?

Martin: That’s cool.

Lon: So there’s podcasts of every one of those interviews. There’s 24 hours of them and they’re upon iTunes. I just put them up a couple of weeks ago.

Martin: Awesome. Okay, well let’s do another shout out, because I can see everybody’s watching. We haven’t got any questions. They say great information, people are enjoying it, understand what we do here. So I know you’re going to be welcome.

What we need from you Ron is a shout out to your website. Where can people find you?

Lon: Yeah, please, come on over. It’s http://LonSafko.com. And if you put your email in the top right, there’s a whole bunch of free information and links to that video that you had mentioned and downloads. I try to push out a lot of content.

Martin: Perfect. I think on that note I’m going to say, hope you enjoyed it folks. I really enjoyed that. Lon, thanks for the perspective. And thanks for coming on and joining us.

And you are going to join us. You’ve got a lovely bunch of people here that are going to welcome you. So thanks to Michelle, Sheila, Mary, Nazim, Roxanne, and everybody else who’s watching. And we’ll see you soon.

Lon: Thank you.

Martin: That was fusion marketing, everybody. Take care.

 [end of transcript]

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